Inside Kung-Fu Magazine
September, 2004
                                     --View the online Gallery--

What is unique about the training that you received under Gong Baozai? How is the application different from Tai Chi? How do you choose what system you use for application?              

The tai chi chuan I learned was very authentic. As a martial art it is supreme. Gong Baozai said that his teacher Gong Baotian acknowledged the superiority of tai chi chuan. Yet he also commented that present day tai chi has lost the thread of the balancing element in medicine. When I refer to medicine here, I am speaking of a sophistication of knowledge that goes way beyond qi cultivation, acupuncture and herbs. These, Gong Baozai said, are surface manifestations of a deeper root in medicine, whereby one understands the nature of change. The sole emphasis of the tai chi training I received was on developing rooting and power. For quite a few years I practiced eight to twelve forms a day, then in the evenings practiced pushing hands, sparring, and the other two-person training. I learned that even though one might have lousy technique and form, with all the qi and strength building in tai chi it would be hard for another to hurt your body with their bare hands.

Exposure to Gong Baozai however, changed my perspective on all of this. Tai chi and ba gua turned out to be like apples and oranges. Because of differences in purpose and approach to practice, they cannot be blended. Not wanting to lose either, I tried for years to find the common link, all to no avail until just recently. I describe this experience in detail in my book Way of the Saint: Missing link between Chinese medicine, mysticism and martial arts.

The system Gong Baozai taught is impossible to study with the same spirit as other martial arts. Everything about it causes one to have to let go of old preconceptions of what martial arts is, especially the value of strength. This is a very extensive question you ask, but I can answer it at the root, which is how the philosophy is used. I am aware there are many versions and interpretations of tai chi, some coming from temples with extensive theoretical frameworks and ties to Chinese medicine, qi gong, and I Ching. But my criteria for authenticity are the families such as Yang, and Chen from where the Yang came. The people that popularized tai chi in the public arena were martial artists, not monks. I do not know the temple styles of tai chi. In the terms of the Yang family, I know that the main application of yin and yang is as directly applied in exercise and practical application. It is principally a martial art, only secondarily a system of therapy or medicine. With training one develops dong jing, interpreting force, fan tan jing , repelling power, someone touches you and in an instant they lose their balance or are bounded away. This is what I learned from the Yang Shouzhong style. No excessively round circles, no winding up, no whipping; the real practical thing that is based on merging body and mind. That is the marvel of the in-the-door Yang family training I caught a glimpse of. You can't get near them; the strength in the hands and body are so great that they could crush you with little effort at all.

Despite this appeal, something was wrong with my tai chi training. I feel the system either lost or never had the medicine. Maybe by the time the families got them the medicine and mysticism was lost already. If Zhang Sanfeng did create tai chi in the Song dynasty and was a monk, it might have been a more elaborate and extensive in terms of medicine and mysticism. What the families I feel mainly got were its fighting aspect and a little of the self-cultivation, which though extraordinary, did not likely include the spiritual aspect.

By comparison, a version of an original temple martial art system was, I feel, retained in the transmission received by Gong Baozai. He claims to have learned it from Gong Baotian, who got it directly from Yin Fu. The depth of this orientation can be summed up by what Gong Baozai once said to me when I asked him how ba gua can be applied to life and self-defense. He said “ba gua cannot be applied to life, ba gua IS life!” That says it right there. The goal is not to find something—that will only kill it—but to seek the principles that already exist within you. This might seem Daoist but it is not. It is just natural and common sense, and the way to allow the body's full potentials to come forth. The more you pursue physical strength, the less you truly have it internally; the more you want to beat someone the less effective you will be in other aspects of your life. You might win a bout, but the effort you put into getting those skills may leave you short-sighted and handicapped in the bigger scheme of your life. Just look at the private lives of many successful pugilists as an example of chi kui , losing out in larger respects. The lives of many students of internal martial arts I have taught, even though not as extreme, are not much different in the lack of balance and true fulfillment.

At this point, my tai chi and ba gua can be practiced together, but only because I've given myself over to the principles of ba gua. The open body posture of ba gua can encompass tai chi; but the closed turtle back posture of tai chi, for all its effectiveness in fighting, is unable on the physical, emotional and mental levels, to embrace the expansive consciousness of ba gua. I agree with Gong Baozai that tai chi must have once had the medicine—emphasis on separating out the organs with movement—maybe even to a greater depth of profundity than ba gua quan, but this knowledge may have since been lost.

What is the resultant sum of physical martial arts training?

I think you are talking about power. I used to have enormous rebound power—I would give demonstrations for my club holding five men on my shoulder and pushing them back into a wall. But it was external and eventually made me sick. Maybe it was because I had not learned the complete tai chi method from the Yang's. But I'm not sure if I want to now, because of the bondage to power; it bred a restlessness and spirit that masked by politeness and propriety was always challenging and testing. One's world becomes very small—who is more powerful, who can push who, who is superior based on this criteria alone? This is the underlying dialogue I see masters promoting to their student's today. It has to be; power is the martial artist's basic claim to self-worth in this modern era. Gong Baozai did not call that martial arts, but “pugilism.” True martial arts, he claimed, embodies medicine, mysticism and character, which as a consequence curbs.the tendency toward imbalance in the strength realm. His saying “employ principle above strength, rather than strength above principle” sums it up.

There is never any guarantee that practicing a superior system will lead to great accomplishment, but the general ambition of ba gua quan is higher than most martial arts. Engaging in self-inquiry under the guidance of Gong Baozai I came to understand many things about Chinese culture and spirit, about human nature and the natural course of life. It is the development of a strong intelligence that makes the body strong and capable, of a caliber above the norm. This is what makes one superior as a fighter; not the endless conditioning of body parts and killer techniques. Superiority as a human therefore has nothing to do with fighting or training. Those who need to prove their self-worth by fighting are in many respects like adolescents.

In contrast, Gong Baozai offered an “art,” a path to freedom rather than a technical craft. He hardly met others who were willing to take up this kind of bid—that is why he had so few students. Few had the faith or patience to try to understand where he was coming from. Gong Baozai's idea of formlessness was essentially to be able to walk into any culture and be so well rounded, well read, and capable and resourceful intellectually, emotionally, spiritually, that you not only feel comfortable, but have no points to defend. One must possess mature self-understanding before form can be relinquished; one needs the courage to let go of one's own culture and open oneself up to others. Aside from the supreme fighting abilities of Gong Baotian and Yin Fu, they needed to be worldly in their perspective to hold such esteemed positions in the Imperial Palace.

This expanded awareness is reflected in ba gua quan's style of fighting as well. Gong Baozai taught one to follow the opponent and use softness to overcome hardness just as tai chi; but the approach taken to develop skills is slightly different. In ba gua training there is more incremental breakdown of the joints from head to toe, and more focus on mastering the footwork. As it came from Lohan it has preserved the full array of techniques one would find in Shaolin, including pressure points, sweeps, jump kicks, throws, locks, flying takedowns, etc. Strong rooting is developed, and so is the ability to be generous and forgiving in word and action. All tolled, this expanded versatility of repertoire offers a broad range of social and physical options when dealing with an attack.

Tell us a little about the training/principles/concepts of the Gong Baozai Ba Gua system.

Some main concepts are chiefly: principle above strength (form); three essential standards: the principles of structure, medicine and technique; the six correspondences; inner and outer unification; self-propagating growth, one-effort, following the natural course. The method for developing strength is very profound, as one learns movement and strength in relation to oneself rather than first learning strength by applying it to an outside body. Integration of the mind with one's own body, character and conduct with one's teacher, tradition and other relationships in one's life, are all vital to gaining unwavering mind-based strength. Most essentially, the movements and postures need to be in accordance with physiology. The inner organs and outer body regions have close functional correspondence with each other. The invisible barrier separating movement of the limbs with the internal organs must be transgressed.

I've heard He Jinghan is the inheritor of this system? What is his relationship to you?

He Jinghan is my lineage brother, and one of the inheritors of this system. I began training with Gong Baozai several years before him. For ten years we intensively researched this ba gua quan system together. Much of the teaching that came out of Gong Baozai was stimulated by us working together. Regarding a sole inheritor, Gong Baozai never declared one person as his sole cloak and bowl descendant. He may have wished it to be that way, but by the end of his life it was obvious that our circumstance made it impossible. None of his disciples had the opportunity from a young age to go deep. He Jinghan and I came into relationship with Gong Baozai having studied other styles; there was thus a bias he had to trouble shoot in order to align us with the pure ba gua perspective. When you look at the reality of our modern situation and lifestyle, in the face of such challenging aspects of this esoteric system that are so elusive and difficult to grasp, it is ridiculous to make such a claim. We are just struggling to preserve the pieces that we learned. Gong Baozai did manage to pass onto us practically the complete framework of the root ba gua quan system; but even he did not learn the qing gong (lightness skills) - the flying art, that his teacher had. In terms of embodying the principles fully in knowledge, skill and character—that is the only thing, in my opinion, that would entitle one to claim inheritorship. None of us has fully achieved to this level.

Gong Baotian told Gong Baozai that ba gua quan can never learned to the end. I am not talking about external forms, but the grasp of the three essential standards—principles of physiology, medicine and technique—to be able to fight in perfect adherence to these principles, living the mystery of change within the eight trigrams, five elements, and yin yang, in every moment of one's relationships.

Regarding our strengths, I would say that He Jinghan, Tu Kun-yii (another disciple of Gong Baozai in New Jersey), and I have each excelled in different respects. Gong Baozai named a total of twelve disciples. To get a well-rounded grasp of Gong Baozai's teaching it would be worthwhile to get to know more than one of us.       (read more...)